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EPISODE 02

Impactful Tips on Running a Successful Business: IDI Talks with David Avrin

January 2020  |  52:06 

At the end of the day, it’s NOT about quality. Quality work should be the bedrock of your business. At the end of the day, the difference between sale or no sale is all about being memorable. So says our guest today, keynote speaker David Avrin.

One of the most in-demand Customer Experience and Marketing speakers in the world today, David Avrin has shared his high-energy and content-rich presentations with enthusiastic audiences across North America and around the world including presentations in Singapore, Bangkok, Melbourne, Brisbane, Bangalore, Antwerp, Monte Carlo, London, Buenos Aires, Glasgow, Bogota, Rotterdam, Barcelona, Johannesburg and Dubai.

David Avrin is the author of three books including the acclaimed: It’s Not Who You Know, It’s Who Knows You, Visibility Marketing and his newest book: Why Customers Leave (and How to Win Them Back.)

A former CEO group leader with Vistage International and marketing firm owner, David’s business and marketing insights have been featured on hundreds of broadcast media outlets and thousands of online and print publications around the world.

Season 1, Episode 2 Transcript

2 – January 2020 – Arvinrev2.mp3 transcript powered by Sonix—the best audio to text transcription service

2 – January 2020 – Arvinrev2.mp3 was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the latest audio-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors. Sonix is the best way to convert your audio to text in 2020.

Travis:
Hello, friends, welcome to R-Value Brought to you by IDI Distributors, America’s insulation source. This is the Insulators podcast. We’ll bring you industry experts in building science, fiberglass, spray foam, spray foam equipment, business and marketing leaders and many others. So sit back, relax, take some notes and listen in to our value.

Travis:
I’m Travis Pancake. SALES and training here at IDI Corporate. Alongside me, my co-host, Don Clymer. What up? What is it that you do around here, Don? It changes every day, but I am the product and sales manager for the spray foam division. National spray foam manager maybe. Yeah. You go to college. I’ll take it. So, Don, what are we doing here today? What brings you to Minnesota? All right. We got a new hire orientation going on. So we’re doing that. And a bunch of newbies up here. We’re training. Now we’re also doing podcasts and I’m pumped about today’s one. We had this guy come to our national sales meeting five, six years ago in Florida. And I’ll be honest, I was probably a little hung over that morning. And then they say there’s gonna be a sales and marketing group to get up on stage and talk. And I was like, oh, god, here we go again. And I’ll tell you what, he got on stage. And he started talking and I started listening. It was it was good. It was energetic. It was funny. And there was a lot of good stuff on there.

Don:
So, you know, as we sat back and we’re trying to figure out who we’re gonna get on the show and what to do.

Don:
He was first like marketing guy. I thought of late because after that I start following him on LinkedIn and Facebook and everything. And he has a lot of good stuff that I think our listeners would benefit from. I mean, just different ways to approach things. So I have a little bio on him. It’s let me read it because I can’t memorize all this. But it says here, David, one of the most in-demand customer experience and marketing keynote speakers and consultants, you’re talking about the visibility. That’s the guy right there. Boom, it’s me.

David:
But I’m supposed to be quiet. You do my introduction.

Don:
Remember Thanksgiving dinner for good.

David:
That’s right. And my last name in there as well. So I don’t think it’s just David. No, he was I was going to. I had it. I’ll get there. OK. I’ll be quiet. You go ahead. It’s best for me to say that I was hung over as well. You know, when I was a professional voice to be quite well, you know, hey, let’s just roll with it, because I saw you.

Don:
What was it? A recent one. It an older one. You were doing a speaking event and the music was keeping you up in Vegas or something.

David:
I was like three days ago. First we even said my last name. So they can’t date David Avrin, David Avrin So they can Google me. While they’re listening, going. Who is this guy?

David:
Last week I was in Vegas and most of the time when I’m speaking at conferences or working with teams in Vegas, I’m on the strip. But this time we were downtown, so I was at the place at the end of Fremont Street, which is a freak show. Yeah, as everybody knows, I mean, Vegas is crazy on its own, but but this was the dregs of humanity in various states of undress. But the music went to like one o’clock in the morning and I got to be up doing a soundcheck at like 6:00 a.m. and my room was literally shaking, not shaking because it was a party. The party was twenty seven floors below. But that’s you anyway. That’s that’s the life of a glamorous life of people who speak and train and teach for a living. So.

Don:
Yeah. Anyway, so let me let me just say this. Perhaps, you know, Syria, in all seriousness. David Avrin is the author of celebrated marketing books. It’s not who you know. It’s who knows you. Visibility, marketing and his latest customer experience book, Why Customers Leave and How to Win Her Back, was named by Forbes as one of the seven business books entrepreneurs need to read right there up on screen. And I’m sure we’ll have links in our description on how they can get it and go to you now. Was that the one that Jeffrey Gitomer had to write the forwards for?

David:
No. Gitomer wrote the foreword to my book, Visibility Marketing, and this was Larry Winget. Know, a lot of people know Larry Winget, who’s just. I mean, if you could just get this guy to come out of his shell a bit now he says it like it is. He tells it like it is. And I’ve been humbled to have some real giants hope to write the forward and promote my books. But the point is in the books and you know, a lot of people who struggle with books, it’s on it’s on Kindle, it’s on audio book, but it’s about it. You know, if it were works is what’s new? What’s changed? What’s different in the marketplace? There’s no shortage of books. There’s no shortage of videos. You can watch your TED talks. I think those are your listeners and your viewers and others. He’s looking for what’s that that point of competitive advantage. What can we do differently than others who do this? Well, and that’s what I speak about and that’s what I write about.

Don:
Awesome, awesome, awesome. So so for the guys who are listeners who who aren’t familiar with you and gals and gals, that’s why I said listeners, I corrected myself. Finally, just give. Like a two minute speech of kind of, you know, what you do, what what your main point.

David:
I’m a I’m a 30 year marketing guy.

David:
I’ve worked with with major brands, major organizations to help people who don’t know who they are, know who they are in the way they want to be known. And I literally taught I mean, I look at speaking as her keynote, speaking as as teaching from the stage. I think there’s sort of this this reputation of speakers as being motivational speakers. And they talk about the mountain that they climbed or the Olympic medal that they won. And I have no problem with my my friends and competitors in many ways who do that kind of work.

David:
I talk hard content. I help organizations, professionals, other stand out in a competitive marketplace. And what I’ve come to recognize in the last couple of years is we’re really in this interesting time of sort of commodity. There are so many who are good. And for those who are looking within the insulation industry, no matter what what specific area that you’re in, there’s a lot of other people who do what you do. And I talk to audiences. I say there’s not a company in this room that couldn’t disappear from the face of the earth today. And despite some very sad family members and employees, the marketplace would not miss you. You are good, but you were not that good. You haven’t created the cure for cancer that tastes like chocolate. If you had, you wouldn’t have to worry about marketing or anything else. But what I’ve come to recognize is that today in this marketplace where everybody’s good and we tend to quote or claim competency. Right. It’s our quality. It’s our commitment and caring and trust in people. All the crap that everybody else says. It’s not that it’s untrue. It’s completely true, but it’s also true. But your competitors. People say, you know what makes us different? We really listen to our customers and we tailor or come. We care. We give you or we really everybody listens. Everybody cares. But when they come to really recognize through my research and the work I’ve been doing over the last 30 years is that today I think the most meaningful competitive advantage is not just being good at what you do, but being really good at understanding what your customers want and what they need and what they fear and what what is a pain in the ass for them.

David:
And so I wrote this new book, which is called Why Customers Leave. And in what I’ve come to recognize is that the companies that win today oftentimes are the ones that are remarkably easy to do business with. And I don’t talk about me, to be clear. I don’t talk about customer service. I don’t get the service with a smile. I think we do. We get it either. Get it. You don’t. You’re either wired for it or you don’t or if you don’t think you’re going to get fired anyway. But customer experience is different. It’s really how your customers, B2B or B2C, don’t even matter. Everybody’s selling to somebody how they perceive it was to do business with you at every point of contact along their customer journey. Were you? It was easy to get hold of a real person. Was it easy to schedule with what are you remember, Bill, are you are you memorable? Are you are you able to track? I mean, here’s what’s really crazy is we’ve always had to be really good compared to others who do what we do. Right. We’ve always said it’s sort of like one of the best in our industry. For the first time ever, we’re being compared to companies and industries that have nothing to do with what we do. I’ll give you an example. Like we look at our employees said Will, Uber can show me exactly where the driver is and what he looks like and what time he’s going to come. And what is his license plate number is WhiteWave. Why can’t I do that with you? Why do you not know where your driver is? Why do I not know where? Mike, Mike? Full visibility, my supply chain.

Don:
Why do I get a service window between 12 and 5 p.m.?

David:
Right. Amazon can deliver overnight and soon it’s going to be 30 minutes. Why? Why do I have to wait three days for you? Yeah. And so me part of it’s just having a real cognizance, a real understanding that that the consumer, the buyer has changed. And it was kind of funny for four decades. People in business would always say technology changes and the markets change, but people don’t change. You know what people change. And people have changed for the first time, I think, because when you look at like the 12 years or so since the iPhone came out, I mean, we do not know today. People people have gotten a little more impatient, a little more demanding. Well, they have because they can be because anything we want. It’s a click away. It’s it’s, you know. Hey, Alexa, order something.

David:
Alexa just came on to my office, you know? Perfect example. We’re sitting here right before the show. There she is. She’s she’s next. And we’re trying to talk to her. We’re just warming up, going back and forth. And we could not remember the lyrics to Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

Don:
I had it. And five seconds just. Yeah, right there.

Travis:
Now, you might ask yourself, why were we trying to remember that? And I don’t have an answer. I don’t know. Question. I don’t question that at all.

David:
But, you know, we avoid saying her name because she comes alive or whatever. But think about this stuff that we can we just have to go to a store and we think about this it and this is really relevant for your listeners or for your viewers as well. We’re sort of coming out of the age of the sales. So I think we’re beyond the age of the salesperson. And that’s not to suggest that there isn’t a role for sales is very important. It’s just really different because we used to rely on salespeople to educate us about products and services and features and benefits and benefits. How much can we do now by ourselves? So now I mean I mean, you go back to I don’t like not 1950s and 60s and 70s or whatever. We go to an appliance store. Right. And some teenager or some old person has been there for 50 years would explain to us this refrigerator or this range, or for those of us who are old enough to remember and stereos for the size of a piece of furniture. Right. But we needed them to explain. And if we want to compare, we would drive to another appliance store and then the salesperson would explain that we don’t do any of that. Wanted to leave. We went up on our phone, you know. Right. So those are the basics of of competency. Right. The features and benefits or that or the financing options or the color options. We can figure all that ourselves. Today, the really good salespeople understand the pain points of their customers. They understand their decision making process in their hierarchy. And who’s deciding and who else are they comparing it to and what’s a pain in the butt in their life. Right. And they tailor that content in their presentation and that availability to make life great for their customers. And that’s a real shift because the power was all in the salesperson and now the powers and in the buyer.

Don:
So how do how do our listeners, our contractors who you mentioned it. And it was one of the first things I wrote down was a lot of our customers feel like they’re selling a commodity. Right. Nobody sees the insulation that’s behind the drywall. Why? Why upgrade it instead of getting that big corner whirlpool tub that they’re going to use once a year? Right. So how do our our listeners take that and apply it to their business?

David:
What I think part of what they do, I think the most important thing is to move way upstream, which means the beginning of the process. I think first of all, we tend to talk about, you know, that argument example. I hear organizations all the time where the CEO will say, listen, folks, at the end of the day, it’s about quality. At the end of the day, it’s still about quality. And honestly, I could not disagree more really at the beginning. At the beginning of the day, it’s about quality. Quality is the entry fee. I’m not saying quality is unimportant. It’s incredibly important. It’s just not a differentiator. You better be damn good at what you say you’re gonna do. That gives you permission to do business in the marketplace. Interesting. But at the end of the day, it’s about competitive advantage and that starts farther upstream. Like from the first time that somebody is considering buying or changing or upgrading or or switching. How easy are you to find? How easy are you to get a hold of that? I mean, literally the greatest source of lost revenue. For those of you listening right now, if you’re in business, your biggest source of lost revenue isn’t your your bad, you know, installer who made somebody mad. It’s a it’s the customer that you never knew about. They drove by and they didn’t stop or they went to your Web site and they clicked away or they went to you. They called you on the phone and they didn’t want to deal with your voicemail system.

David:
Those I mean, that’s by far the biggest source of lost revenue. And most and you have no idea who those people were. But there was something that was difficult in getting a hold of you. I see this all the time. Here’s one of them. And this this will make you smile because we see this all the time. One of the biggest defenses in business is companies that literally won’t let you call and talk to a real person or a real person isn’t available. I’m not talking 2 o’clock in the morning. I’m saying you go to their Web site, you some a simple question right now of any industry and everybody listening. You’ve all been through this. You go to a Web site. There is no freaking phone number like anywhere. I cannot find. Right. I say this to audiences and everybody’s nodding. There’s there’s no there’s no there’s no email addresses. But what do you find? You find a contact form, an evil, wicked, horrible contact form, because they believe the nonsense of some Web optimization person or somebody internally says, listen, if we put a contact form to fill out the form, hey, even better, we can ask some pre-qualifying questions. So now we can tailor it. Only now we’re going to capture the information so we can market to them later. Here’s the problem we want to feel you’re stupid for. We just wonder. We just want to talk to a real person and you wouldn’t let us.

David:
And one of the answer now, or just at least no one. We’re gonna get the answer because we don’t fill it out because we don’t know who’s gonna get it. And we don’t know when they’re going to respond. And I’m going to give me the analogy. It’ll make sense if I’m like, I live just south of Denver, so I live in Castle Rock, Colorado, out in the burbs on a cul de sac. Our neighbors broken. I’ve got some broken sprinkler heads in my backyard. I think they did the area. Shannon Brooks and speaker. So I keep saying I’m going to fix it. I’m not going to fix it. So I went on Craigslist and I found sprinkler repair and installation like probably 20 on the list. And I called the first one, but I got a voicemail. Right. Not not here right now. Working in the field. I’ll call you when I get back to the office. Here’s my question for you guys. Do I leave a message, yes or no? No, of course not. Call the next one. Yeah, right. I just it’s just I call the next one because I can. The contact form on your Web site is the answering machine of the Internet. That’s good. Yeah. Nobody will. Hashtag David Avrin.

David:
If you’re gonna tweet that, that’s my street cred. I snapped end of the psychotic form as the answering machine and the people.

David:
I want to fill it out. But we think we’re not trying to be a pain in the ass. It’s just we have made it more difficult. It’s so easy in what is a commoditized business to call another installation installation company. Right. Right. It’s so easy to call somebody else. And and the reality is, there’s so few opportunities to sort of get our foot in the door for a new a new contractor or new somebody that we want to. First and foremost, we want to eliminate everything that might be a challenge or make us unattractive. Right. Anything that makes you hard to get a hold of or slow in terms of your response in yester year. We would just leave, which is bad enough, right? But today, people feel this need, if not a right, to complain and make sure everybody knows about their dissatisfaction. They are going to make you pay because I didn’t get a callback. Who these guys think they are. They come on. Yeah. Let them leave a bad review.

David:
Right. Right. Well done. Yelp and TripAdvisor and Rotten Tomatoes and Glassdoor. People are weaponising Yelp. Well, not all areas.

Don:
If you have a bad experience, it’s not just. You don’t just tell ten people. You put it out there online. And ten thousand people have read that review.

David:
Exactly right. I mean, that’s that’s one of my that’s one of my mantras on stages is we grew up. I remember called. Right. GUEST relations philosophy. GUEST relations philosophy says this. And you alluded to this. The average person with a positive experience tells two or three people, but somebody with a negative experience tells ten, right. Everybody’s heard some variation. You’re right. Today we tell thousands. Sometimes we tell millions, right. It just drag a paying customer off your airplane and see if that gets forwarded. Right. See if that spreads.

Don:
I’ve got a question, so you said, you know, getting getting a hold of being able easy to contact a lot of our listeners right now are owner operators. Right. So they own the business. They’re out there installing. They’re up in an attic and they can’t they can’t answer the phone and put this job on hold to talk to the person on call. So what advice would you have for them? Is that an answering service?

David:
Is it? Well, first of all, I’m going to challenge your your assertion. And I’m only going to challenge it because we cannot approach business like we did 10 years ago or 20 years ago. We have to be accessible and we have to be accommodating, even if it means that something comes on the line, says so-and-so is working out in the field. This is Google something. I will attempt to reach the person right now. Please hold. And if it gives you 30 seconds, 15 seconds to excuse yourself, to go in the other room for a second or have somebody else answering it who is a family member, somebody who knows we cannot lose opportunities if somebody calls. That could be a potential job. No, I’m not talking about and I don’t want anybody being dismissive. When you listen, I’m just to this podcast. I’m telling you, the world has changed and that that customer who couldn’t get a hold of you will just call somebody else.

David:
Or if you are independently wealthy and you can afford to not be available for people, that’s fine. I’m telling you, like I’m going to give an example on mine. I have multiple small businesses in every one of them have a contact sport, but they also have e-mail addresses, cell phone numbers of everybody on my team. If I could have a cranial implant and people could directly access my cerebral cortex, I would do so because, guys, this is my livelihood. I will say let me use my family.

Don:
When I when I sent you a message on LinkedIn and I thought, there’s no way this guy’s gonna respond, or I could go back and look at a time stamp, I would say it was 60 minutes or less. You responded.

David:
I was to unless I’m onstage or I’m on an airplane. And now we get Wi-Fi occasionally. Unless you are united. Unless you’re flying united and you won’t have Wi-Fi. It sucks. Yeah. Hashtag, David, I’m going to get back. Hashtag David.

David:
I’m going to unpack and get back to you as fast as I can. I mean, we’ve got here’s the other thing, because I work internationally and I’ve spoken in 24 countries in the last six years, I’m all over the world. If somebody wants to have a conversation or we get somebody reaching out at 2 o’clock in the morning, they’re in Singapore, they’re in Bangkok, they’re in Johannesburg, we’re getting back to them. I mean, I my alarm is on my phone is on people. I saw some of your line people saying there’s a new app that if there’s a phone number that comes in on your phone, it’s unknown. It sends it to voicemail. I’m like, I would go out of business. Yeah, I answer everything. And, you know, there’s a lot of spam and crap that comes over the phone. But this is still answering your question about those who are working in the attic or working to find a way to answer if you can. I think people understand. Even if you answer and say, listen, I’m in the middle of a job. Can I call you back in 45 minutes? The answer in most cases, sure. Yeah. The reason we don’t like answering machines or we don’t like contact forms, which is the same thing, is we don’t know when you’re gonna get back to us. So oftentimes or who’s gonna get that? So oftentimes we just won’t do it because it’s easier just to reach somebody else. I love my colleagues. I speak for a living. My competitors in this field are great. I have I have competitors were so good at this.

David:
That my friends and colleagues. But they’re my competitors as well. Half of all speakers have just contact for us because we travel. It’s insane. I tell them and I speak some these big annual conferences for them as well. And I say, I want to thank you for all of you who have contact us. Could you put my kids through college? Thank you. Thank you so much for your lack of availability, because here’s the reality. In many cases, I have I have talked to the client. I’ve negotiated a fee and the contract is on the way before my competitors even respond. Now, I have a lot of service oriented people that I’ve tried to contact for work on my homework in my yard. It’s stunning to me that either half of them never get back to me at all. A third of them don’t get back to me for days, if not a week. I don’t do business with any of them. Now, if they’re so busy that that’s great. Good for you. I assume that most people aren’t. Those people aren’t listening to podcasts because you’re so busy in the field working 24/7 in your pipeline, you know, for the next year and a half.

David:
But for most of us, we are slaying the daily dragons to support our family, to build a business, to pay our employees and everything else. So I challenge your assumption or your assertion just because that’s the way it has been, that we cannot take calls. I think we have to take calls or it’s and it’s one that says, you know, so-and-so is working the field. They will get back to you within five minutes or four. Please hold while we locate the Nextel subscriber, something like that. Now, in addition to that, after hours, we have to have some kind of answering service answering system. There’s people overseas. The Philippines have a phenomenal service culture. You can get people three $4 an hour who will answer phones, will do live chat features, all of those as well. But one of things that I preach is you have to be remarkably accessible today.

David:
That’s awesome. So it was a long answer. There was a lag on just that.

Travis:
So when you when you make those calls to some of these guys and they do call you back to ever, ever give them a coaching moment on like, hey, listen, listen for a minute, I’m not going with you.

Don:
Because here’s why.

David:
First of all, I don’t. I don’t often leave messages.

David:
Sometimes if it’s an email thing like on call, I mean, if somebody finally calls back to you, you know, when you maybe you’ve already made a decision and you get it.

David:
I mean, I always tell him I’ve learned that, A, I don’t want to be so arrogant as to think that they need to learn from a.. But I always do let them know that I hired somebody four days ago. You know, what I wanna say is, hey, thanks for getting back to me so fast, numbnuts, but I don’t. I just. Just let him know. Already found somebody three days ago. What’s crazy is when I would do things online, like overseas, like designers on Upworthy or I’ll answer, I guess in the this is no upward. Fiber. Things like that. I got people all over the world in Bangladesh and in Sri Lanka and India. It’s three o’clock in the morning for them and they get back to me within two minutes. Wow. Because. Because it’s their livelihood and they realize where they’re where their bread is buttered. You know, where they’re non is buttered.

David:
There was an India reference to her dad. So. So, yeah. Yeah.

David:
So it is a different world. And people saying, well, don’t you know, because we’re. I’m doing calls at 2 o’clock in the morning. If I’m talking to somebody in Singapore where somebody wants to talk. Like I said, they’re from here up from waist up. You know, I’m in a good sport coat, but from the waist down. But here’s the point. I’m going to accommodate them. I don’t expect them to accommodate me because I’m fighting for business, because competition is tough. And people ask me, well, what about life balance? I’m like, they’re not calling me every day at 2 o’clock in the morning. My kids understand that occasionally I have to leave the table to take a call because, you know, for them, leaving that thing is no, your friend. You know, Jimmy can wait for your call for me. I got a $10000 gig and that’s not going to wait. Right. That’s going to be for those dinners for the next two months.

Travis:
You know, this might be your college tuition, son. Yeah. Yes. You think so? One of the things that I and I remember you saying it back in the day, but, you know, you being very, very good at what you do is now just the entry fee. You’ve got to be remarkable. That’s kind of goes outside of what you’re saying about answer the phone, you know? Right. It’s your livelihood. Speak a little bit about some other differences that, you know, I mean, some of these guys. Sure, they don’t get it yet. You know, and so that’s kind of why we talk about brain experts on, you know, we talked we wanted know somebody like you that that’s gonna maybe shed some light or inspire something.

David:
Yet the genesis of that quote was really talking about what we we tend to do is that we make our marketplace, our prospective customers, numb and numb because we tend to have competency based claims. So what I mean is we’ve got it for everybody listening right now. If I went to your Web sites, most your Web sites and I and I took your name off the top and I substituted your nearest to competitors, three competitors names for your name. Ninety five percent of what you say on that Web site would apply to them as well. Yeah, we talk about our quality and commitment and caring and trust in people. And those are competency based claims. Those aren’t about differentiation.

David:
It’s not that they’re unimportant. Let me be clear. We have to establish our credentials and our credibility and list the services that we provide. And how long we’ve done is we need to look like a safe choice. But the smart companies are leading with something different. And what’s different isn’t that we care more or we listen more. We talked about it at the beginning or that’s about quality or or here’s the one I love is when they say, listen, our reputation speaks for itself. Really, you know, that that’s lazy. That is incredibly lazy. You have to speak for yourself. I’m not suggesting that you’re you’re your reputation is unimportant, incredibly important. We just can’t sit back.

David:
And, you know, it’s sort of like our reputation speaks for itself. Enough, said Mike drop. Right. Meanwhile, a very aggressive competitor is eating your lunch. I tell audiences all the time. I said, listen, there are people out there who are trying to steal your money. They’re trying to take away your ability to feed your family and to pay your mortgage and send your kids to college. It is not personal. They’re just trying to feed their family and their mortgage and send their kids to college. So all of this sort of lays the foundation for what do you do better than others? What do you do more than others? What do you do? Easier than a. Than others. Maybe you’ve done it longer than others. Maybe you’ve pioneered a new installation procedure. You’re the first to offer this technology or you can do what others are doing. And half the time or because of a unique relationship with a vendor, you can get special pricing or faster delivery or faster installation, or maybe because you have a bigger crew and more locations and more trucks that you are, people can be dispatched. For those who are just looking for contractors or others looking for supplies, maybe you have access to being able to resupply them faster than others. You know, in terms of our people, the problem is we can’t claim great people because we’re all pulling from the same labor pool. Right. I mean, let’s be honest, that’s our biggest issue for us. It’s hard to find good people, but we’re all pulling from the same labor pool. So talking about caring or it’s because the special relationship.

David:
I’m not looking for a great relationship with my install insulation installation person. I’m not looking for that relationship. Now, I understand the relationship can be important from a retention perspective. I’ll keep working with people I like and know and they’ve done great work. But the first time, because. Right. This is all about getting up to bat. Give me a reason to choose you over somebody else. Because the problem isn’t. And you heard me because I talk about this as well. The four most dangerous and the foremost dangerous words in business are all things being equal when all things are equal. When I believe it, you do exactly what your competitors do, and in many cases we do. Then I am hammering you on price.

David:
That’s all right. It’s been it is all about price. Now, I hear this all times and all they care about is price. Not true. Not true at all. Look for the differentiators. What do you do differently or better? Because this is all about initial trials by getting that first client customer for the first time. And then you know what to do to nurture those relationships, right? No, no. Because what I hear Ultimates is all about a bit. It’s all about a bid if they assume you’re all the same. Sometimes they can circumvent a bid process if if they have somebody that they preferred, vendor that they’re working with or preferred person. If you want people to to recommend you once again, I just once again, as a marketing rights is what do we do that’s different and better and faster.

Travis:
So let’s let’s talk a little bit about that and your new book, Why Customers Leave and How to Win Your Back. So you brought up the bids. You know, our our contractors know they’re gonna go out and bought a house. Right. And they know that that homeowner is going to get four more bids. OK. How are they going to be more memorable, more set that apart and, you know, get win that job without going through the features and benefits.

David:
And that’s what if if and in a bid is different than an RFP process, of course. Right. So we’re working with homeowners. It’s it’s the recognition and realization that they’re going to talk to others. So bring up the elephant in the room. Call out. No, listen this. But I want to be really clear because because I’m very strong on ethics in business, we never trash competitors. Never, never, never trash competitors. That said, you can always indict an industry for underperformance. If you’re talking to the homeowner, listen, our industry is notorious for X and Y, not nothing that that’s particularly demeaning. But this is the way it’s been done for 50 years. But let me let me tell you what we do differently. You know, or acknowledge listen, you’re gonna get bids from a lot of other competitors. They’re friends of ours. There are so many others are really good at what they do. And almost all of them could do a fine job. Let me tell you what we do that nobody else does. Let me tell you what we do differently. Let me tell you about our unique. You know, pink instal 5000 platinum. You know something? Visibility plan where we actually have an app that you can watch live footage of our this or you can track exactly the progress. You see what we see. We’ll give you before and after pictures. We will do readings of of of energy leakage and X and this before.

David:
Now, some smart companies already doing all of this. But if you paint the marketplace as generalists and position yourself as a specialist, you have a more meaningful conversation. Does that make sense? Right. Specificity leads to credibility. More specific things that we do that the others aren’t going to do. Don’t say it’s because they don’t care because that’s not true or that they don’t care about the little guy. They don’t care about customer orders. They just won’t stop it. You can say they’re not going to do X Y because that’s not their model. Right. Accomplish this and you’re gonna get a lot of other bids. They’re not going to do this and this and this. Listen for this watch for these things. It’s not their model. Here’s why we’ve been around for the last 50 years. Right. Or listen, we’ve been we’ve been doing this for a record or century. We watch competitors come and go so and so gone. So and so bankrupt. So and so left the market so and so got bought up. There’s a reason why. We are still here. Here’s what we do. We are here generation after we are here. We will be here next year. If you have issues or if you have questions, if you have upgrades, we’re going to be here because we’ve been here year after year after year.

Don:
So that’s quite a great point. And I don’t know if I was in one of the books I read or when you’re marketing minutes, but you talk about future proofing your business. Yeah. And so for the companies who haven’t been here for 50 years, they don’t have that legacy there because we have a lot of listeners out there right now who are just getting into this business there. They bought their first spray foam, bragged about their first blow machine, and they’re in business one or three years. She’s playing future proofing your business and how to go about doing it and the benefits of it. Got to have a drink.

David:
I’m just drinking by my obsession of Coke Zero, Coke Zero. It’s refreshing to see the things I do, try to get sponsors trying to get sponsors here. It doesn’t matter for those who are newer in business. Listen, there I am come up with competitive advantages for everybody. Paint the industry is antiquated. Here’s the way it’s been done for the last 50 years. We have a new state of the art blow truck foam install X-Rite and all the lingo is not my end is right. But here’s how it used to be done. Nobody wants to do it the old way. If there is a new way. No, we’re not gonna buy shiny or because it’s shiny. But if we say here’s a better way, it is a third of the cost. It’s twice the value. This thing is we listen. We’ve got competitors who did installs 10 years ago this that need to be replaced today. This is going to last you the next 40 years. There is something attractive about sort of the new, better way. Listen, I would even say it this way. Listen, everybody is gonna do it this way in the future. You gain a competitive advantage in in saving money, in your business, in your in your strip mall and your home or whatever else. By working with us today, this is the way and this is the same pitch that I got.

David:
We built our house and they convinced me to spend a fortune putting tech ports in every room. Cat 5 Cabling this and this. You’re gonna future-proof your home, everybody else. When you go to sell this thing 15 years from now, you’ve. Are you kidding? Everything’s a wireless now. It’s a little too it be our data. Right. But it was very convincing because future proofing, I think dancer question also is saying is asking the question, how are people going to want to do business with us next year or the year after? Can we start putting initiatives in place or are they going to be able to? Are they going to want more interaction or are they going to want less? Are they going to want to be able to get estimates over the phone right now and prepare for it? Absolutely certain. Getting ready. Look at some other industries. There was one I was talking to a group that did. It was a moving company in some of the big innovations that are coming down the pike for moving companies is being able to do estimates, accurate estimates on an app where the homeowner literally walks around the house. I did this. Did you do that? Yeah.

Travis:
When we just sold the house in Louisiana, moved to Colorado Springs. So we’re neighbors and the carramar which company it was. But, you know, the first two people I called were like. We’ll schedule an appointment between this and this. And then the third one I called said, well, let’s do face time or whatever it was. And boom, I walked around the house, got a quote right there. Yeah.

David:
Absolutely. They didn’t have to send somebody out. You didn’t have to wait up days. It was probably within within five minutes. Symbol of that. So good you don’t remember the name. I went by cheap. I can’t I keynoter this a..

David:
New technology, specific technology that I cannot talk about because I honor my my clients confidentiality. But you’ll hear about it and then I’ll be able to talk about it. But I didn’t realize you were in Palm Springs. You’re just down the road from. Yeah, just moved there in June. It is. It is a beautiful place to be at the foot of Pikes Peak.

Travis:
Oh, gorgeous. We love you. Yeah. Yeah. So our contractors, while they’re out on the job, experience a lot of things that could they could fall through the ceiling. They could. You know, the equipment breaks down there. Guy doesn’t show up. How do you talk about it? How did to prep prepare for the unexpected and and what message to send to the homeowner while they’re out there or the builder on why they didn’t get the job done? Is there a good way to do that?

David:
Sure there is. And once again, in my book, White Customers Leave and How to Win Them Back. As I talk about 23 different reasons and one of them was was well, two of them one was talking about transparency and the other was talking about. But just tell us what you know. And there’s a whole chapter. It actually had a big argument with my editor on this because they wanted me to change the name and I and I didn’t. Then the chapter is called Don’t Pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining. Right. Did you use one of my favorite? They found that highly offensive. I’m like, come on, pee pee isn’t. I can come up with a lot more things that are amorphous. But the whole idea was was just tell me the truth. I mean, I a client this week, I wouldn’t spoken. They were supposed to have a they were supposed to have a check for me after I got done presenting for the conference. And they didn’t. And they said, oh, no, no, we sent it off three days ago. And then the following week. Oh, it didn’t get sent. It turns out it didn’t get to our accounts payable person. But it will go out this week in New York area travel for a couple of weeks and then, oh, you know what? It’s like, come on. You know, we we all know organizations that have cash flow problems or they’re aging, they’re their payables, whatever. Just tell me the truth. We’re pretty we’re we’re grown ups. We can take that. And so I think to answer your question about when things go awry in the field, which they do, I think.

David:
I think transparency is is not only the best policy. I think today it’s almost the only policy because people are pretty jaded. I think we can be pretty cynical if we think we’re getting the runaround. Not only do we do we get frustrated at our our vendor or our or install or anybody else. But once again, we go online. I’ve got this great slide. It was the marquee of a gas station in a busy intersection. And it says on the marquee, it says, ask how bad my lows incense install is going.

David:
Wow. Ten thousand cars a day or driving by. When?

David:
When the reality is, if they said, listen, we’ve got we ordered some wrong materials, here’s what we’re gonna do. Here’s we’re gonna do to make it right, you know. Or something else. We had a problem with our person. I’m going to personally come to the job site tomorrow to make sure that it’s on track. We’re gonna give you dinner for two at a dinner for four at Chili’s to make up for your inconvenient. Any of those things to play? Kate, people, because we have to do that more than ever. Sort things do go awry. Do you recommend?

Travis:
Do you recommend going over what the potential pitfalls could be before you go into a job? Or do you leave that out?

David:
Oh, no, I would absolutely do it. I don’t know that I would go through it all before I signed a contract. Yeah, I know. But I’ve got to their money. Here’s what I’m not trying to be unethical.

David:
Interesting. Here’s the reality. Yes. I mean, if we’re still fighting for the job, we should we put on our best face. You know, when you’re when you’re dating somebody for the first time, you’re not going to say, oh, by the way, it’s when, like, you know, I tend to get pretty gassy when I have black black toasts, I tend to know you put on the best one in a day or at least keep it real. And, you know, as you’re working out the schedule, just understand that here’s what we’re gonna do. We have no control over X or Y. We’re gonna do everything we can. But the reality is the issues that we face is what everyone in our industry faces as well, you know, painted as as an industry issue. So it’s not about your company, but we know oftentimes is how do we handle things that don’t go well, plays a significant part in whether somebody is going to want to do business with us. Again, just tell us the truth. We’re we’re big kids.

Don:
It gets back to the Yelp reviews right now. The bad news is gonna be spread.

David:
Yeah. I mean, Yelp is Yelp is evil. I mean, people are weaponising Yelp. There’s a movie coming out. There’s a new documentary called Bully Reality. You wait to see what’s happening with Yelp. Oh, they’re horrible, horrible stuff, because we have no control over what people say, whether it’s true or not. There is no filter. They push you to pay for good reviews. You say you’re not going to pay and they’ll send. Your good reviews are buried. It’s a racket coming on to social media in itself.

Travis:
Oh, absolutely. How how much should you trust those type of reviews?

David:
Oh, I think people that it doesn’t matter whether you book whether you whether we believe them or not. It’s both social proof. And people will trust those over your own ads. Over your own. Web site. So part of the way we affect that is by pushing some of those negative reviews lower, by flooding it with positive reviews that are accurate. And somebody has a good experience. They like it. Ask them, would you would you say a few things? Would you please go on. Put it up on your phone right now. Hand it to a right, then just say it because. Oh, oh, I’ll go do that later. Haven’t do it right then and there incentivize it. You know what? If you’ll if you’ll leave us a review. If you had a good experience, you know, tell me don’t don’t be dishonest. But if you had a good experience, please do that. There’s a whole line this is that the behavior that’s recognized or rewarded is the behavior that’s repeated. That’s a recognized or rewarded. I ask you because because reviews are always gonna be skewed negative. The people who were satisfied are satisfied to go away. People are unhappy. They go online and they’re going to hurt you.

Travis:
Oh, absolutely. Without a doubt. It’s is horrible. So and in their books, it’s not who you know, it’s who knows you and visibility marketing and why customers leave and how to weight you by listening.

David:
All of those. I appreciate that.

Travis:
Absolutely. Do they have to read him in order?

David:
No. They’re actually the first tour marking.

David:
So the most recent one, if you’re if you’re looking at ways at raising your visibility in the marketplace, visibility marketing is a great book for that. But the new one, why customers leave is really it’s almost a rant. It’s all the things when I when I have friends and colleagues and others who’ve read it, they said they were nodding the whole time. Oh, I hate it when they do that. I hate it. And the point is that businesses, in an effort to be predictable in their customer path and predictable and predictable in terms of their employees behavior, that we try to standardize everything. Here’s here’s how we’re gonna do it every time. Right. That we can have some measure of predictability. You know, the interesting thing is we we we hire staff. We hire workers and we look them up online and we interview them. And we might ask them open ended questions to me about a difficult situation. Tell me how you how did you handle it? And this is we Hyrum we newsroom now. Just do it our way. Now, here’s just don’t make any God forbid you should make a decision because you might make a bad decision.

David:
Don’t change it. The problem is, you know, there’s there’s so many things that businesses do that are great for them. But we hate like you. You buy from somebody, which is you’re like literally their best customer because you were the one who most recently bought. And then they start flooding you with survey requests. You know, hey, please rate your experience. Please fill out this thing and you don’t fill it out. So what do they do? They send you another one? Yes. You don’t fill out that. Hey, you forgot to fill out our survey. And now, you know, your experience was fine. But now I’m sorry I ever did business with you because now you’re annoying the heck out of me because you’re over serving me. These are things that businesses don’t think about. I mean, they’re thinking like, we need to get feedback. We can correct problems. We can head off people so they don’t go on Yelp and complain about us, but then they overdo it because they automate things.

Travis:
So I get the feedback while you’re there right before the job’s done. And if you are, I mean, is that is that what you’re saying is the best?

David:
Yeah, sure. But there’s other ways. I mean, there’s there’s things you can do to make them really happy. You ask them, say, hey, listen, this chop went so well. Take pictures. Can I share? Can we throw a quote on there? This is like literally your. This is a Picasso in the instant enhance insulation work. Right. And then they’re kind of proud. Wow. I guess it did turn out great. You just told them how great it was. Or maybe you say, hey, listen, we would we would love to. If you want have some friends over for a barbecue or some, we’ll we’ll spring for the burgers and dogs. You want to show everybody what you did. And we’ll give you a 20 percent commission on any referrals that you make for your neighbors as well.

Travis:
It’s like when when you go on a hunting trip or a fishing trip. Sorry to interrupt, but. And you you catch a nice trout or something. And that guy is like, hey, do you mind if I get in the picture with you? We’re going to put this on the Web site. Absolutely. Then, you know, they’re not blowing smoke up the NSA. All right. This is a good one.

David:
Right. Because, listen, I mean, I work with a lot of industries that are not considered sexy. Now, you know, insulation installation is very conspicuous in its absence. You know, when your insulation sucks. Right. But you spend money, you know, of insulation. Your life’s not much different. Right. It’s like having to replace your washing machine after it goes bad. I had a washing machine. Now I have a washing machine again. And my life is different. Well, the differences with you guys, your life is different. It is better. It is more energy efficient. It is solving a problem. You just have to remind them that. Here’s what we did for you. You’re out with the here’s where you were before. Here’s where you were after. Right. Yeah. I didn’t ask for those, too. Like I said, to refer. And here’s out. Let me through a quick thinking about referrals, because I get this dismissive thing all the time saying, listen, you can ask for referrals. It doesn’t work. Nobody refers. Well, part of it, you can incentivize it. But the other thing is, you have to be specific. If people say, listen, if you know of any other neighbors or anybody else you know here, please give me my card. It doesn’t happen. But if you say, listen, can you think of one of your neighbors who maybe has been there for a long time? Or recently moved into the house or is going through some construction. Where can you think? Can you give me two names of anybody else who lives in this neighborhood? Who can I use your name as or is a reference right there? I send people. How about this? I love this one. If I talk to others in your neighborhood, can I send them to your house to look at what? What an amazing job. So that they could and people are like, well, yeah, I guess you can. You know? Yeah, they’re pretty proud of their installation.

Don:
Travis has spray some in his house. I want that. Right. Can I come out? Yeah, that is sexy. Sorry.

David:
Or anybody else who’s thinking about finishing their basement right now. We got to I mean, all of those things are finishing their garage. I mean, keep your ears out in yester year. If you did a really good job. Well, here’s what they said. Right? We grew up with this. If you build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door. Right. Just might be really good today. You got a warehouse full of mouse traps and somebody overseas knocking him off for 10 cents on the dollar. You have to be aggressive. You have to be creative. Here’s the other thing. From a promotional perspective, it’s social media and everything else. It’s video, video, video, video, show before and after.

Travis:
So if I consumers aren’t on social media, are they just way behind the game?

David:
They don’t exist now. Don’t exist like my kids are funny. Me and I would like teens and early 20s like dad. Nobody’s on Facebook. I’m like, really? Yeah. Who? 2 billion is the biggest country in the world. Every time I post and stuff in the way they post, you know, like worthless stuff on snap face and link chat. And my kids are like, oh my God, Dad, you don’t get it. I said, Oh, no, no, no. I teach it. Yeah, yeah. And if three times more followers and, you know, like, shut up.

David:
But here’s the thing is, is tell those stories. Tell success stories. You a handheld thing or a selfie stick and say, hey, let me walk you through this job that we just did.

David:
This was actually kind of interesting because here’s what we found before. And I think I don’t even know who did the installation originally was probably came with the house or somebody did a remodel and literally did not know what they were doing. It was costing these homeowners probably six to eight hundred dollars a year just from the leak, which let me tell you what we did just to walk them through it. Don’t don’t hire a professional video camera or crew. Just do it on your cell phone. We’ve got we got high def video, tell stories. Here’s the key. And social media. Would you say for if you want people to be interested, you have to be interesting. Be interesting.

Travis:
Yeah. Would you say for our our small business, you know, contractors out there, is it more important to be on Facebook or LinkedIn or is there a platform that’s better for for that?

David:
You know, it is first and foremost, if you’re not on LinkedIn, you don’t exist. Everybody is going to to look you up before they hire you. Everybody everybody looks up, right.

David:
We’re not just looking up old girlfriends and boyfriends and in person we talked to on the phone to see if they’re if they’re really cute. Every we’ll look to see if you’re legit. They will look up. They’ll look for bad reviews online. You gotta be cognizant of what’s there, what isn’t. If things if somebody puts a bad review, you’ve got to respond to them. Make a deal with them. If you go back and do X and Y, would you agree to take down your negative review? Write people in. Think about that. They think all this person and I’m going to respond and say they don’t know what they’re talking about. I gave them fifteen different times and there’s still reach out to them. Try and make them OK.

Travis:
Do you leave their negative reviews up and how you know the correspondence with how you solved it and offered to solve it? Or do you want that negative review off?

David:
Or will you have. No, unless it’s on your site. I mean, first of all. You at their basic review sites, you have no control over what stays and what doesn’t. But like on your on your social media, do not believe anybody that says your social media is an open forum and there’s a First Amendment. That’s crap. It is your front porch. It is your Web site. I don’t allow anybody put negative stuff on my social media. I delete that stuff. Anybody puts political arguments. I have political views. I don’t share online now. I don’t make enough money that I can afford to piss off half of my perspective customers. So I would encourage people. Social media. Answer your question. If you’re not on LinkedIn, you don’t exist. You’ve got to be on LinkedIn. And you look at where young people are probably much more on on Instagram right now than they are Facebook. But the people with money who are insulating their houses are on Facebook now. But here’s the thing is, once again, if you want people to be interested, be interesting, tell stories, do profiles of staff. Show a community service project that your your team is working on. Right. All things being equal. I’m gonna work with somebody who is community minded. Yeah. You know, so you have to be there. And if this is if this is stressful for you, just deputizes one of the millennials on your team. Find a propeller head. Who knows what they’re doing. ice-cold people understand what that means. And and and post. You drop the post every day. Post videos. Yeah. Yo, success stories. Put on testimonials of people saying this was awesome. Right. Right. So don’t make them so formal.

Travis:
Perfect. Well, I think that was great.

David:
I got nothing else. Gentlemen, I saw you out more. You have cured cancer here today on this podcast.

Travis:
Yeah. Yeah. No. Thank you so much. Yeah. Again. David Avrin, author of the three books we’ve mentioned. Where can I go online to find you?

David:
Sure. If they want to learn more about me, my speaking consulting. I love to go into organizations and help work with them as well. If you go to visibility international dot com, you can learn about me.

David:
Got the books, you can watch a preview video and other things as well and then go to my podcast. Yes, very visible business podcast. There you go. Very good.

Travis:
Well, thank you so much. We’ll have all the lengthen the subscriptions and everything. And again, thank you for the time. Really appreciate it.

Travis:
This has been a presentation of the cellar door network for more podcasts than you can take out into the street and turn into money. Visit Cellar Die Network dot com.

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EPISODE 01

HFO Performance, Mandates & More: IDI Talks With Chemours Professionals

January 2020  |  25:14 

Today it’s all about the HFO. The next generation of blowing agent in spray foam is increasing yields and decreasing impact on the environment. But the rules on when and where HFO spray foam will be mandated are confusing at best. That’s why we’ve called on the HFO professionals.

Our guests today are Joyce Wallace and Ernie Wysong from Chemours, formerly DuPont Performance Chemicals. Chemours is a $6 billion dollar chemical company that is leading the world in innovation on a number of products that dominate a contractor’s life including spray foam.

Visit Opteon.com today to find out more about the transition to HFO blowing agents and how Chemours continues to set the standard on these products.

Season 1, Episode 1 Transcript

1 – January 2020 Chemours NF.mp3 transcript powered by Sonix—the best audio to text transcription service

1 – January 2020 Chemours NF.mp3 was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the latest audio-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors. Sonix is the best way to convert your audio to text in 2020.

Travis:
Welcome to another edition of R-Value the Insulators podcast. I’m Travis pancake sales and trainer here at the corporate office in Chanhassen, Minnesota. Sitting here with my co-host, Don Climber. Don, how are you doing today? Fantastic. How are you? I’m doing great. So, Don, what is it you say you do around here?

Don:
We’re still trying to figure that out after 15 years. But on a good day, I’m managing our spray foam division.

Don:
Now, you look a little tired today, Travis.

Travis:
Yeah, we’ve got some customers in here for training all weekend. Well, you have to entertain.

Don:
Yes, you do. Part of the job. So coming up on today’s show, we are going to be talking everything. HFO. Oh, we have camorra’s here. We have Joyce Wallace and Ernie Ysong was a Y song. And Joyce has been with camorra’s for over 30 years. And same with Ernie Joyce is the marketing North American marketing manager for camorra’s, formerly Dupont. She was instrumental in the market development and commercial commercialization of the new low GWP blowing agent off Deonna 1/100, which recently received the CPI Innovation Award in October of 2, 2017.

Don:
Ernie is a graduate of Caltech. I think we have a first doctor on the show today. Travis So I’ve got this condition.

Ernie:
Ernie You’re not that kind of doctor. If it hurts, don’t do that. Don’t do that. Great advice.

Don:
He started out with Dupont. Now Claymores as a research chemist transitioned into a technical service consultant and is now the global technology leader for Opta on walls and panels. That is a mouthful. So why are we? Why do we have these guys with us today? Well, we want to talk about the H.R. foe’s. Why the change in the industry, which states are adopting it? What does it mean for our listeners? How is it going to affect our customers daily business and as a HFA, really that different from the current product?

Don:
Travis? Yeah, who’s bringing us today’s show?

Travis:
Well, we have the idea. I wanted to promote the service centers with three locations across the United States. One in Montana, Tulsa and a new location in Boston up and running. You can find more information on those service centers at the idea web site IDI-Insulation.com.

Don:
Well, let’s get right into the interview. Welcome, Joyce and Ernie. Thanks for coming. Thank you. All right. So this is new to everybody, right? First podcast. Sure is. All right. So to break the ice a little bit, we’re just gonna kind of ask some fun questions, not industry or market related. Rapid fire. Pom pom pom. They’re easy. We’ll go easy. I change them up based on our conversation at dinner last night. So we’re really in trouble.

Don:
So Wimbledon was just on. Were you a big rooter for Coco?

Joyce:
Yes. That was fantastic. She was always. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah, I did watch some of it. Crazy. He’s gonna be around for a while.

Don:
So, you know, then the other one is who’s going to be Georgia Tech? Georgia Tech’s biggest challenge in getting the SCC championship.

Joyce:
Oh, my. That is a good question. I’m not even sure how to answer.

Joyce:
They open up with Clemson, so we got to get Penn. That’s going to be crazy.

Don:
Hey, if they win that one, the season’s good.

Travis:
Yeah, they can. They go back to temple. So that’s gonna be cool.

Travis:
Yeah. Yeah. So Ernie. Yes, it’s a dancing piano. Both. Both. Kind of dancing right now.

Ernie:
I do all kinds of dancing. But tango dancing, I must admit, is the passion.

Travis:
Now is this for exercise or because you’d just like to dance?

Ernie:
Primarily because I like to dance. But a side benefit is you get a lot of good exercise. How long you been doing that? I’ve been doing it now for ten years. Really? Yeah. And I’m still working on it.

Ernie:
That’s something you can continue to get better the rest of your life. You never want to see me on the dance floor. Just to ask my wife a doctor, that tango dances. That’s a first.

Don:
Yeah. That’s awesome. All right. So let’s talk a little bit of of your guys’s career history.

Don:
Joyce, we’ll start with you. If you just kind of want to start us, how you got into this business and how you’ve transit’s transitioned into the role you have now.

Joyce:
Okay. Great. It’s all a bit of a long path. Thirty eight years with Dupont. Now, camorra’s started in finance. I was finance manager for many years, got into sales, sold some T 002 and then in 2008 went into the floor chemicals business. And since then have been responsible for commercializing are low GWP products. So it’s been a lot of fun. It’s always fun to be part of change and and have good products. We’re committed to innovation, so it’s kind of fun to see what’s next and keep moving it to.

Don:
Sure. How do you make the transition from finance to marketing?

Joyce:
Yeah, I get. I don’t usually go tango dancing, doctor.

Joyce:
Yeah, exactly right. I get that question a lot. I don’t know.

Joyce:
You know, I just love what I love is my customers, right. And I love to do work on things that make a difference. And it just turned out to be sales and marketing was a much better fit. It’s good to have the finance background.

Don:
Your personality fits marketing a lot more than finance.

Travis:
It seems we here at IDI, the financial division and the sales division are like total opposites. So it’s a kind of an interesting transition.

Joyce:
Yeah. Have the finance department is a lot more fun, right? I don’t believe that, Dr. Erni. Yes.

Ernie:
How about you? How did they get started in this biz? Yeah, well, I mean, I’ve been I was in Dupont for twenty five years in various jobs of polymer science. And then about seven, eight years ago, they asked me to come over to the floor products area. So we got something really interesting and really great. We’re working on these next generation materials are going to help, you know, the the world knows. It sounds like something from me. And it has been a fascinating journey, I must admit. And the world of polyurethane and spray foam and everything is really interesting, exciting. So I’m glad to be a part of that.

Travis:
Awesome. Awesome. So you got Dupont camorra’s. Talk to me a little bit about that. The it’s camorra’s.

Joyce:
Yes, it was. It is. Claymores Moore’s was spun off from Dupont in two thousand fifteen. July of 2015. And so we are totally separate company. And it was it was a pretty interesting transition. Being with Dupont. Thirty three years. Change is always hard, but it’s been exciting. We kind of look at it as we were 200 year old startup company. So you can take all the good that you have from this big giant company. How old? A 200 plus year old. Oh, wow. I didn’t realize that. So you take the legacy all of Dupont and you transition to commers and you’re a little more nimble, quicker to market, committed, closer knit family, smaller organization, but still large. So, yeah, it’s been great.

Don:
Oh, I did not know that history. Yeah, we just had Bullard one hundred twenty one years. But you’re saying over to Anderson that’s two years.

Travis:
All right. So let’s talk HFOS. The change, the misconceptions, the truths, the myths, the facts all about it, because you talk to some contractors out there, our listener base, and some of them have an idea. Some have never heard of it. Some are all over it. So talk about maybe we start with the history, what with the blowing agents started as that’s why they transitioned where it currently 245 to to the age of those. I think it was a 1:41 at the beginning. Can we talk a little bit about that? Oh, absolutely.

Ernie:
So if you go back more than 40 years ago, actually, it was the CFC 11 call. It was the starting of this chlorofluorocarbon and it was really good. And the reason people want floor chemicals in a spray foam is because they have excellent insulation performance. They’re non-toxic, nonflammable. And they they last for a long, long time. So it’s excellent. But the trouble was, the original one started having issues with ozone depletion. Remember that? I talked about that. So they had to start transitioning away from the chlorine that they had on that molecule. That’s where you got what they call the 1:41 be. That was the second generation. And then they got to the third generation, no more chlorine. And they called them the HFCs like they’re using today. And everybody’s happy. But then they find out that they because they are a good insulator, they also contribute to global warming that Al Gore.

Travis:
Come on. Well, yeah. So no politics on the show, please.

Ernie:
So then that is then that is why we’ve had to go into the fourth generation. Now, how can we have all those benefits that these four chemicals can bring, but without ozone depletion and without global warming? And so you would make a molecule with a double bond, an olefin. That’s where that name comes from. And that greatly reduces its lifetime in the atmosphere and gives it a very low global warming potential.

Don:
So reducing the lifetime, what what’s the lifetime of the current to forty five chemical versus the HFA?

Ernie:
Years vs. days. Oh, you’re kidding. And that makes all the difference. Yeah.

Travis:
Without any depletion of insulation qualities.

Ernie:
Well, this is the magic is that when these olefins are out in the atmosphere, daylight, you know, hydroxyl radicals. Ozone is everything. They don’t last for very long. But when they’re inside of foam, they last for many years, decades and B and beyond. So so they quality but made it safer for the environment such exac.

Joyce:
Claim the HFO is a ninety nine point seven percent reduction in global warming. So it’s significant.

Joyce:
Right. It’s yeah. That’s huge. This is why change. Everybody want to adopt that then? Good wash, you know? Sounds like something we should all be doing, you know? And I know there was an initiative to do so. And, you know, we got to that threshold. And now it’s six states. I think that are required. Yeah. So let’s talk about that.

Travis:
Let’s talk about the adoption was going to be January 1st. Right. 2020. And now it’s changed. So what? What caused that change? Why? Why are only some states now?

Joyce:
So for spray foam? Yeah. That change was January 1st, 2020, and the EPA had issued two rolls. SNAP, roll 22, step roll 21 that most people are familiar with that were leading up to this major change. And it was a complicated path. Right. Very best to leave it at that. There were court cases, challenges. The end result was that the EPA needs to go back and rewrite those rules, make a few changes. But meanwhile, it takes a long time to invest and formulate, make changes to be ready for such change. Right. You know, with the credentials. So it’s a well-thought out process that needs take time. Meanwhile, so the states really start to step up and do it on their own. California leading the pack. They certainly yes, they certainly have pretty aggressive goals on emissions and greenhouse gas reductions. So they said, hey, look, EPA has already given us the format. We’re going to adopt that in and incorporate that in our state regulations. So there it wasn’t long. The there is quite a few. It’s called the Climate Alliance. And there’s quite a few states that have signed on to do state regulations based on HFCs.

Don:
So is there a place where our listeners could go to see what states have adopted and are what stage they are in adoption? Or is that just up to a state level?

Joyce:
It gets low. We can we can provide that. Yeah, we do keep things on our website to help because it’s ever changing. I guess that’s the challenge. But we get a lot of questions about it, too.

Don:
And so we’ll put that link on our website or in the description of this, this I. Thank you. And you can listen to on an iPod if you want to. Thank you. So they can go back and check that not to interrupt.

Joyce:
Now, I want to get one resource and we update that quarterly because it is ever changing. But to answer your question. California led the way. There’s at least 16 other states that have joined the Climate Alliance. And where we have come from is California, Washington State and now Vermont. All have regulations in place.

Travis:
Now, does that require them to have an HMO phone then, or is it just you have the option to use it and you still, you know, you could still use it to forty five?

Travis:
Or is there saying AFO only in their states they will not be able to use to 45. So they have adopted SNAP as written for the most part. So that following those dates, they can’t use it. So that creates a lot of chaos on your distribution.

Don:
Yeah, I have a question on that.

Don:
So if we have a contractor who doesn’t live in Vermont but drives in there to do a job, he he can use to forty five in the neighboring state and he has that on his trailer, but he has HMO product also. Can he get in trouble if he brings to forty five into that state, but is not spraying it on that job because you know, our contractors will carry two to three sets on a truck at a time, depending on the job. So, Kenny, is it still legal to have that on there or how are they police?

Joyce:
I would be. I think it’s going to come down to really segregating your inventory because it’s if you have it on the truck, you’re going to run the risk that there could be some kind of error. And it will not be allowed to be used in those states. Those states are going to grow. There’s already New York, Maryland, Connecticut, New Jersey, all have proposed regulations that are working their way through the system. So I think most folks for the system houses we work with, that’s where the challenge is around managing their phone formulation, where their warehouses are. And they’re not going to run the risk to put any foam in any of those states. So as you start to get more and more states, I think you’re going to see that drive. We’re already seeing folks that either are driving to HFA was because of the complexity of managing inventory and to being a differentiator. Right. Hey, if it’s coming, why not be first and help your customers be different and contribute to the positive low global warming potential?

Travis:
I know as a company we had a big initiative to get a bunch of H.R. PFOS and some of the ways that we were doing that was increased yields, the safety of it all. We talked about that with Dr. Erni a little bit, but then it kind of fell apart.

Travis:
You know, it kind of went last time, you know, because it was it was a hard charge. You know, January 1. And so what we wanted. Excuse me. We didn’t want our contractors for the first time spraying it December 15th. And trying to Ireland. So we were trying to get ahead of the curve, and now, like Travis said, it lost a little steam. We’re still we’re still promoting it and saying, hey, this is coming, you might as well adopt it. But there’s some there is a little pushback from it because it it’s more expensive.

Travis:
And I will say that those that did buy into it in our spring and HFA, although they have seen the benefits of it, just the spray ability of it. Obviously, the increased yield by just a factor of chemistry. And it is as you talked about, but it just seems to be a cleaner form. I don’t know if that’s by the you know, by the way it’s created or the fact that it’s just easier on the equipment because you can spread it lower temps, you know, whatever other factors. So I’m surprised that more haven’t adopted the AFO. And specifically in Minnesota, we use a lot of closed cell foam. It seems to do better in the in the cell, in a closed cell foam I’m not so certain about, but an open source just because we don’t spread a lot. But so because I know the HFA, there’s no blowing agent in a in an open cell phone, but.

Don:
Well, some of the hybrids and. Yeah. That so. Yeah. So let’s talk about some of the characteristics and the values of what the HFA brings to a close cell phone. Higher value. How is that achieved?

Ernie:
Well, in the case of of our HFA. And that’s something we should talk about, is that there are there are more than 1 types of HFA in our eyes.

Ernie:
Erni and HCFA codes and other made my dad letting out there.

Ernie:
There’s there’s the best there’s our material, the optimal living hundred. It is a pure HFA has no colourings associated to foreign aid. All the fun and the beauty of that molecule is its boiling point is a little bit higher to about 92 Fahrenheit. That gives the foam the ability to have spray ability over a wider temperature range. You have better yields because you’re not evaporating it. It’s very stable in the systems and takes advantage of all the existing formulation knowledge of all the folks out there making these products. So they’re able to leverage all that wonderful knowledge and to come up with a product that works even better than the current HFCs, which have a lower boiling point. Why does it have better value? Well, it also has a very Macall low solubility. It doesn’t want to leave the system. It’s happy inside that foam. And guess what? When you put one of the best molecules inside there and it doesn’t want to leave, you have this insulation that persists for a very long time.

Travis:
So like a middle, a millennial, they never want to leave home.

Ernie:
Well, that’s a proven fact.

Travis:
So you get higher value, better yield. Exactly right. So if if the the listeners are out there saying, well, this stuff is, you know, slightly more expensive. The cost per board foot and cost per hour, it’s actually lower or about the same. Correct.

Joyce:
It can be. It can be. Yeah. It’s where the yields they can certainly see time is money. Right. So they can they can spray it. Maybe a ticker passes, they can get higher yields. There’s there’s all kinds of flexibility that they can see. I think spraying it is the key because there they know what they’re doing. Right. And they’ll see a big difference I think when they compare it. And we hear oftentimes that formulas with Opta Unlove 100 spray a lot like 1:41 be all red. Obviously they have the better environmental profile. So in all these transitions, sometimes there’s tradeoffs. And you give up some insulating benefits or some other pros and cons in this particular case. It’s actually a as good, if not better insulator while still making a positive impact on GFA. So that’s cool.

Travis:
So it’s not just better for the environment, it’s better for the contractor.

Don:
Yeah. Well, how much of that research, you know, is driven towards obviously the environmental impact, but also the improved yields that, you know, obviously affect the contract, the end user spraying spring. It is that happened by accident sometimes or is that like a focus like hey, we want to make a better foam yield better? And the side effect was that it was more beneficial to the environment or is that I’d like to sit back and say that we thought this all out well in advance design, market back design.

Ernie:
But the fact is that thousands of molecules were examined and screened to try to come up with these replacements. And just a handful and actually just a couple or so actually passed all of those tests of things. And then then you work with that material and see how much you can get out of it and leverage it. And we were very fortunate that it fell well in our favor and having these benefits.

Joyce:
Yeah, I think yield the yield and for proven is a definite positive, right, because it is going to be more expensive, it’s gonna be another transition for this industry. So being able to get better yields is certainly a positive.

Travis:
Yeah. So how do we help our listeners sell this to the homebuilders? You know, other than just, hey, it’s better for the environment is there you know, we got the increase yield. Is anything up your sleeve that you can, you know, tell the listeners, hey, this is a, you know, such a self apart?

Joyce:
Well, I think there’s there’s different, you know, camps like always. There’s folks that environmental improvement in sustainability is number one on their list. Right. You have these high energy efficient homes. This is a no brainer for that. Right. It fits right in and delivers and hits on all those marks. Energy efficiency is also important. It’s important to everybody. They’re trying to pay their bills, cut their bills. And so it does deliver that it’s, you know, superior thermal performance, better insulator. So you really can see the payback with close sell. So that’s important. And in this case, with off Diane Levin, hardhead, it really does hit the mark on the energy efficiency. So I think there are two key points that kind of help people say, hey, that, you know, we’re starting to see people say, I want the low GWP ofthey on 1/100 formula, which is is pretty novel because most people don’t even know what blowing agent is in there. So it’s kind of starting to resonate. So they’re seeing the difference. Yeah.

Travis:
And what I’m seeing is there’s there’s not one clear message from the manufacturers, you know, each one. They might not be using your product, you know. And so there’s confusion and the market is there. Is there a Web site they can go to for you guys that kind of lays it out more clear, concise message and has really I’m looking at some some resources right now that you brought up. They’re great marketing pieces. Where could you know, we can put them on our Web site, maybe do a joint marketing campaign with it. But before we get there, until we get there, where would they go to get something like this?

Joyce:
Yeah, absolutely. We’ve spent some time because we know this is gonna be a big transition for folks. So we’ve spent some time putting together whitepapers. People kind of freak out at whitepapers. It’s a nice, thin, easy to use reference on trying to help make the choices around what insulation, because it really does matter where you live, what kind of building you have on what your objective is on our value. So at Opta on dot com and we’ll make sure these resource available for you as well. There’s a couple infographics that talk about payback. Talk about energy efficiency places in the house that maybe make the most sense to use it, whether you’re doing renovation. And then there’s some white papers that kind of help walk through it. So we’ll definitely make that available.

Travis:
Yeah. And we’ll put the links in the description, like I said earlier. So we’ve had how many changes has there been in the blowing agents? Is it just a three? This is now the fourth. This is the fourth and the final generation. Is that your final answer? Because I’m thinking, okay, what’s next? Because when did they adopt to 45? Anybody?

Ernie:
So it was back in the early 2000s. I mean, it’s been almost 20 years ago when I first started to come on board. So hopefully we get another 20 years before we have to make a change.

Joyce:
He said final. I think this is it. I think this is so.

Joyce:
Yeah, when you’re when you’re seeing the GWP of two, you know, now, who knows what the next day. You know, we had ozone depleting. We had global warming. What’s next? But, you know, we’re always committed to innovation. So if something’s changed and we’re working on it, perfect.

Travis:
Never know what Al Gore junior might. Hey, I thought politics. Yathrib broke my own rule. Yup. Yup. Well, I mean, I think that was great.

Don:
A lot of great information. You know, the stuff I took away from it was, you know, it’s really it’s better for the environment, increase yields, increased our values. It’s gonna be a more stable product. So even if your state has an adopted it yet, it’s going to happen at some point in the near future. So you might as well, you know, give it a try, get used to it and see what truly a better product could be for you.

Joyce:
Yeah, I think it’s an opportunity to lead as well to contact you since you’re out there trying to differentiate. If you have a new product, you’re performing better, you have confidence in it. I think it’s gonna work well in the marketplace side.

Travis:
You know, if the yield increases there and the cost really doesn’t make a difference, it does on paper. But, you know, when you dial it into the cost per hour and cost per pound or per four-foot, excuse me, it really doesn’t make a big difference. It just, you know, it’s going to get you more yield.

Joyce:
So we do like to say that what’s behind the wall really does matter. And it’s an education process.

Don:
It truly is. It really is. Well, I really, truly appreciate the time. Thank you, guys. It was great. Travis, you want to take us away?

Travis:
Yeah. I mean, I want to thank the tango doctor and the finance marketing lady. So it’s great, but interesting. Make the show. But remember to check out the podcast. I don’t think we have a home forum, but we’re working on it. But you can check on it. TED IDBI, dash insulation, dot com and more to come. Absolutely. Thanks, everybody. Thank you.

Don:
This new this has been a presentation of the cellar door network for more podcasts that you can take out into the street and turn into money. Visit Cellar Die Network dot com.

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